Françoise Robin is professor of Tibetan Language and Literature at Inalco. Her activities make her travel to Tibet every year. In 2011, she was responsible for collective work “Clichés tibétains. Idées reçues sur le toit du monde” (Cavalier Bleu). (Tibetan clichés. Prejudices about the roof of the world). Among her many papers on Tibetan culture, she has also co-translated “Neige”, a collection of the literary works of Pema Tseden.
On the occasion of her curating the Focus on Tibetan Cinema at FICA Vesoul, we speak with her about life and culture in Tibet, the Chinese influence, Tibetan cinema and literature, and many other topics.
The interview was initially conducted on February 17 and was modified March 8, 2020.
What drew you initially to deal so much with Tibet?
I read a book called “Snow Leopard” by Peter Matthiessen, an excellent book, about a man searching for a snow leopard in the Himalayas. And I wanted to see by myself the Himalayas, so I booked a flight and I went to Nepal. I did a few trekks there and I realized I just loved that environment, which happened to be fully Tibetan in culture. I came back to France and started learning Tibetan. This was back in the mid-90s.
When was the first trip to Tibet proper?
In 1994. I decided to do an overland trip so I took buses and trains from Paris to Lhasa, via Siberia and Mongolia. It took me 3 months.
And from then on, you visited every year?
Yes, once a year since then actually.
Which are the most significant changes you have witnessed through the years?
Sweeping changes. You can see changes even in here, in France, so imagine what went on there, people whose families had no running water are now driving cars and use WeChat all day long; material changes are really heavy. Another big change regards the political atmosphere, which has become really tense, especially since 2008. But it is contrasted, depending on places. Lhasa and the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) is very tense, Amdo (current Qinghai province, parts of Sichuan and Gansu), where most of the movie shootings take place is a bit more relaxed, and you can see a lot of gifted young people connecting with the world that emerges now. Pema Tseden is one of the first individuals coming from Tibet proper (i.e. not exile) that have a good knowledge of western culture. Until the 1980s, Tibetan people used to be secluded, surrounded only by Tibetan and Chinese culture, but now you see an opening towards world culture and a thirst for it, be it literature, cinema, poetry. Many websites are dedicated to these fields and strive to educate their readers on what's going on in world culture. A few days ago, a famous Tibetan poet has posted a Tibetan translation of the lyrics of The Sound of silence into Tibetan, and the Karmapa, a very high Buddhist hierarch, has offered his Tibetan version of the lyrics of some songs by Bob Dylan. Another Tibetan intellectual has launched a literary magazine called “World Literature”, whose first issue is dedicated to famous post-1950 American writers and also to Western literary theory: excerpts from works by Nabokov, Oates, but also Robbe-Grillet, are offered in Tibetan translation.
How is Tibet governed?
It is both complicated and simple. Since the 1950s, the Tibetan territory (which is five times bigger than France) has been divided between 5 Chinese territorial administrations. There is the Tibet autonomous region (well, supposedly autonomous), that makes up about half of the ethnic Tibetan territory. Supposedly here you have an autonomous council, autonomous representatives, Tibetans have more leeway, but in reality everything is run by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), like everywhere in China. One has to know that, in the People's Republic of China, hospitals, schools, tribunals, etc., all include a Communist party office, headed by a “Party Secretary”, and that person is always the most powerful person. And with few exceptions, that person is usually a Han Chinese, especially in the most crucial and powerful administrations. For instance, there has never been a Tibetan CCP Secretary for the TAR, always a Han Chinese. In the TAR, due to its “autonomous” status, there are Tibetan “governors” but they are chosen among the most obedient citizens and moreover they have hardly any power, compared to the Party Secretary.
And then you have the other half of Tibet. It has been incorporated into four different Chinese-majority provinces, and classified as “autonomous prefectures”. Here again, provisions for “autonomy” are on paper and do not often materialize. Locally, you do find leaders who are Tibetans. Sometimes they care for Tibetan culture or language but sometimes they do not, they just want to climb up the scale, so they have to show that they can control the population. Education policies can also differ from one place to the other, depending on who is running the education bureau, so provisions for education in Tibetan language varies from one place to the other, depending on how much “autonomy” is being practiced locally. So it is impossible to offer a unified picture of “Tibet” and how it is governed.
Anyway, the PRC is now slowly getting rid of these “autonomous prefectures”, through rapid urbanization, and reshapes them as “municipalities”. It is a tragedy for Tibetan areas previously labeled “Tibetan autonomous prefectures” because, according to the Chinese constitution, “municipalities” do not offer any provision whatsoever for autonomy, meaning that the teaching of Tibetan language, the specific handling of Tibetan monasteries, will soon become there a thing from the past. The little shield that this status offered until now, however limited, will soon disappear.
What is the main occupation of the people living in Tibet now?
85% live in rural areas and they are herders or peasants. Actually, there are no Tibetan cities apart from Lhasa, and Lhasa has been under almost martial law for over 20 years, you cannot move a finger there, it is very complicated. As a commercial and political center, it is also heavily populated by non-Tibetan, exogenous populations, mainly Han Chinese but also Hui Muslims, who have strong business skills and extended networks to the rest of China. Tibetans are having a hard time competing as they have no national network, and, traditionally, no good basis in Chinese language – although this is changing. A city would be an ideal place for a movie industry to begin, because there is city life there, and urban environment is beneficial to cinema culture. But that is why in the Tibetan movies you only see the countryside, because all these guys in Tibetan cinema come from such rural areas, that have no Tibetan cities (and also perhaps because Tibetan landscapes are more appealing to Chinese and international audiences than bleak urban ones). And while many educated Tibetans in Amdo live in cities now, these are Chinese cities, so they do not feel at home there, or at least they do not find it proper as a filming background to make their films.
How can someone reach Tibet?
If you mean the Tibet Autonomous Region, and Lhasa: from anywhere in China – Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai, Guangzhou, etc. Recently Hong Kong-Lhasa flights also started (that is, before the coronavirus outbreak). From Kathmandu it is difficult because it is international borders; they do not let you in if you are a foreigner, you need a special permit. In fact, all the main cities in China are now connected by plane to Lhasa. You may also take the train now (the rail line started operating in 2006), from many Chinese cities, and it is much cheaper than the plane. But to enter the TAR, including Lhasa, foreigners must join obtain a travel permit (on top of a Chinese visa),by joining a tour which costs US$ 300 per day. Individual and independent travel has been forbidden for over twenty years there. The other half of the Tibetan plateau (in Chinese provinces) is virtually open, although with restrictions sometimes. For instance, it is almost impossible, as a foreigner, to set foot anywhere in Tibet (TAR and Tibetan prefectures in Chinese provinces) around March, because March 10 is the day of the Lhasa uprising in 1959 and it is still seen as a very sensitive day by Chinese authorities, with potential (although rare) risks of demonstrations by Tibetans. If a self-immolation happens somewhere, the area is also closed off to foreigners for some time.
Since you have participated in a book about Tibetan clichés, what would you say are the biggest misconceptions about the country?
So many. Like that all Tibetans are all kind, compassionate, and benevolent, that they never fight, and they don't meat. These misconceptions are somewhat expected: Tibetans had few contacts with the western world for so long. When we “discovered” Tibet in the 20th century, we did not know anything about them, we ended up with a number of clichés. Shangri-la also, through James Hilton's book (“Lost Horizon”, 1933), and F. Capra's film (1937), did much to promote this image of a peaceful area where everyone loves each other etc. One should not be too cynical though: Tibetans are often jolly, easy-going and calm, traits of characters that Buddhism encourages to develop. Another cliché is that Tibetans do not eat meat because they are Buddhists and Buddhists are non-violent, so they do not eat meat. These are the kind of stereotypes that we are trying to deconstruct. In Tibetan films, for instance in “Jinpa“, you see that meat is part of the staple food. I do not know if Pema Tseden did it on purpose, but it does fit his objective to show a Tibet that is closer to reality than to fantasy.
I have read that Buddhism was introduced to Tibet by a woman. Can you elaborate?
I guess you may be referring to the Chinese princess Wencheng, so your sources must be Chinese (laughter). When I started dealing with Tibet in the 1990s, China was completely out of the picture, or completely discredited, nobody believed what the Chinese propaganda was saying, and anyway, it was not as widespread as now. Chinese control over Tibet was in a way new then, but now, more than 20 years later, China has become a super powerful state, endowed with a super powerful propaganda. They have managed to spread their version of history everywhere and now you have heard about Princess Wencheng, who was almost unknown from the general public 20 years back. So yes, their propaganda bureau is really efficient. Anyway, she married a Tibetan emperor in 7th century. And she did not introduce Buddhism to Tibet. Buddhism was introduced in the 8th century from India mainly, with also influences from China. Tibetans always highly admired Buddhist India, they translated thousands of Sanskrit texts into Tibetan and, after Buddhism disappeared from India, in the 12th century, Tibetans started offering their own version of Buddhism, rather than being just mere translators.
Pema Tseden's “Balloon” deals with One Child Policy. How was that implemented in Tibet?
From 1979 till 2015, China has implemented the policy of one child for Han and two or three for “ethnic minorities”, Tibetans among them. Two for urban couples and three for rural couples, and that was the policy for more than 30 years. The problem with Tibet is that it is divided in so many provinces and prefectures, so you cannot know how this policy is actually implemented locally. There is no press freedom, so unless you go and talk to actual people and ask them about how they experienced this policy you cannot truly know what happened. Were women actually sterilized after having two or three children, as claimed by the Human Rights discourse? Not all of them. Yes, there must have been coercion but I know so many families that have like, six kids, although they have to pay a fine. But most of educated Tibetans, who live in urban environments, have only one or two children, this is true. Anyway, this matter is quite sensitive, and when I go there, I try to avoid sensitive questions, because you never know who is listening, not mentioning that such intimate matters as contraception or abortion are delicate ones.
The interview continues in the next page
