Kaori Oda is a filmmaker/artist born in Osaka, Japan, in 1987. Through images and sounds, her works explore the memories of human beings. Her latest film Gama has been screened at MoMA DocFortnight, Cinéma du Réel and Cinéma de Brive (Jury SFCC de la Critique) and more.
Nao Yoshigai is a director, actress, writer and choreographer, known for Grand Bouquet (2019), Shari (2021) and Jitensha nori no shoujo (2013).
On the occasion of “Underground” screening at Tokyo International Film Festival, they talk about the unusual approach of the film, the stories featuring in it, shooting in caves, the most difficult scenes to shoot and their favorites, the financing of the film and other topics.
“Underground” is the last part of a trilogy also consisting of “Aragane” and “Cenote”. Are you happy with how the whole thing turned out?
Kaori Oda: Actually, after I finished shooting “Underground” I decided it would be an underground series. I am not sure if I am satisfied with the end result at this point, but I am thinking that the trilogy doesn’t have to be underground now.
You didn’t use actors in your previous films, but you did so this time with Nao Yoshigai. How did you come to this decision?
Oda: Yes, before I did not use professional actors but people who were locals for example or just people I know. This time, however, I casted Nao but actually, when I first started working on the movie, her role, the role of the shadow was not presented by a person, but just from actual shadows, of a hand for example. However, at some point this approach became a bit limiting, so I decided I should cast a person for the role. I knew Nao from before, I had seen her in her films and that was one of the reasons I casted her in particular. The second and most important reason is that the producer of “Underground”, Eijun Sugihara, knew her and was actually the distributor of her films.
How would you describe your character and why did you decide to play the particular role?
Nao Yoshigai: As the director described, initially it was supposed to be just a shadow of a hand, but then it came to be the whole body as well. I felt like I was navigating the impression of the shadow, the total impression, and what I was feeling was realized on screen. I think I was able to transmit the feelings that I felt. So, I was not not in the film as a performer so much as, through me, the viewer could feel things. For example, in the underground or when Mr Matsunaga is describing the war, you could feel more things because of me being there.
So, could you say that you were yourself during the film, rather than acting another character?
Yoshigai: Not so much me as a person, but more like representing a human being.
Tell me a bit about your approach towards cinema in general. It is quite unusual so why did you choose to shoot films like that, and not more mainstream for example?
Oda: I haven’t thought about it too much. All of them are films but I guess there are different types. I am looking for a film language that is different from other people’s.
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So in that regard, I’m also curious, what kind of films do you like to watch?
Oda: Everything. I just saw “Civil War” recently. I like to watch films screening in festivals, artistic ones. Whether they are big or small, mainstream or arthouse, there are so many types of films and I watch them all, but I really like the ones where you can feel the presence of the auteur.
Yoshigai: I like grotesque films (laughter) but I watch everything. Initially I liked action films but I make films myself and when I started making my own, I started to think that it all starts with the five senses and it is just about the film language, but you can do all sorts of storytelling in different ways.
So, do you prefer acting or directing?
Yoshigai: I like to do a lot of things, I am also directing on stage, now I am really into dance
Touching seems to be one of the focal points of the movie, there are a lot of scenes with hands touching different objects and surfaces. Can you elaborate on this concept?
Oda: First of all, by touching something, you kind of take in the memories of that particular thing. Also, since I started with a shadow as a different concept, before Nao came in, I was thinking what part of the body would better represent this shadow, something that is active and I can also play with. And I thought that is the hand, and that is why the hand featured so much in the movie.
Check the review of the film
Tell me a bit about these two stories about caves that feature in the movie.
Oda: First of all, when I started the production of “Underground”, we went to many places but we actually came up with two locations. One is in Sapporo, and we shot a lot there, and the other is in Okinawa and we shot that too. Actually, I have another film called “Gama”, which is just about the Okinawan story. When I finished shooting that, I thought that “Underground” could be more about digging deeper into the underground of Japan. However, I didn’t want to include just impressions, I needed some kind of grounded story, and that is why I included the Okinawan story.
Can you tell me a bit about the narrator of the stories, Mitsuo Matsunaga?
Oda: He’s actually a conveyor of peace, and he works to relate these stories. And also in his spare time, he collects bones. And so when I went to Okinawa and went to the gamma, the underground caves, the people there told me I needed a guide, and that is how I was introduced to Matsunaga. This is actually what he does, he narrates the stories inside the caves.
The two stories differ significantly in their outcome, with the fate of the two groups of people that were stranded in the two caves being essentially opposite. Did you want to talk about the concept of chance, luck with this juxtaposition?
Oda: We didn’t intend to do anything particular with the stories, but Matsunaga had many to tell, and we selected those two. You could say we had an intention there, but that was to show what he does, which is to relate these stories to pass them to the next generation. And we wanted to do the same with the audience of the movie.
I feel that there are a lot of scenes in the movie that are very difficult to shoot, so I was wondering if you can tell us which was the most difficult thing to shoot and maybe which one is your favorite?
Oda: The cave scenes were definitely the most difficult. Regarding my favorite, it is difficult to say because I have a lot of scenes that I like. But the first sequence is the one I like the most, which is why I placed it at the beginning of the movie.
Yoshigai: I like the one in the shrine, with the man and the kind of chant. I thought that scene was really impressive. The most difficult scenes for me are not the ones that are physically difficult but the plain ones when I am making miso soup for example or when I am walking around the streets in Osaka. I am not doing it consciously usually, so I had to do it somewhat unconsciously, and I found that difficult.
In technical terms, how difficult was it to shoot inside the caves?
Oda: Every member of the crew had to carry these huge sacks with equipment and kind of trudge through a muddy area.
You like to torture your crew?
Oda: (laughter). I did my part also, I carried bags too.
Tell me a bit about the editing in your film, which I feel is the main source of experimentation in it.
Oda: We had two producers in the film, and we really talked about every shot, which needs to come first and so on. That was my first experience with the editing process and I thought of all these different possibilities for it and with all the materials we had with us, I just thought that we could do more with it. We experimented on many things.
What is your opinion of the Japanese movie industry at the moment?
Oda: I am not really part of the film industry. Regarding the “Underground” team, we were taught a lot about harassment and what to do and what not to do, and about labor hours, and we signed some things. So, I think we were able to film in a very good environment. I think that my generation and younger generations are beginning to be more like that, so the shooting environment is better, the hours are more logical etc.
Yoshigai: I am neither really part of the industry. But, as you mentioned, “Underground” is a weird film and it is all shot on 16mm. We had a very small crew and yet we had enough budget, and that was really an accomplishment of the producers. So, in a way, the fact that Oda can make a film like that is precious, and it shows that we are in a good place.
So, how did the financing work for the movie?
Oda: I applied to make a pilot of the film, a teaser piece. With that pilot, we applied to the Ministry of Culture to get a subsidy for two years. Eiju Sugihara did the main part of the production and then we got more budget subsidies from Sapporo, while the Okinawa part was subsidized by the city of Osaka, and that was the way the budget was built up. And at that point, we said these pieces could be made into a feature. And what we lacked, he provided (pointing at Sugihara in the room, while everyone is laughing)
What are you working on next?
Oda: I am working on a short film. I work with my family to make films and I work with my mother right now. So, the film is about her daily life plus a little sci-fi.
Yoshigai: I have a new film that just came out, it is showing in the Arts and Culture Center in Aichi. Oda has taken a big part of the film as well and the title is “True Dreams” and it is like a documentary but also includes fiction.
